Leading in mental health

This week we chat to a very special guest - Simon Blake OBE.

Simon is the CEO for Mental Health First Aid England, as well as Deputy Chair for Stonewall and a Pride 365 Champion.

Mike chats to Simon about his journey with social justice, the importance of humanity and kindness for our mental health and how as leaders, we can set the example for our people to build a happy and healthy workplace.

startwithin.co.uk

Transcript

Abbey O'Hara 0:06
Hi everybody. Abbey here at start within, we have a very special guest on the happy employee podcast this week, Simon Blake, OBE. Simon is the CEO for Mental Health First Aid England, as well as Deputy Chair for Stonewall, and a pride 365 champion. Mike chats to Simon about his journey with social justice, the importance of humanity and kindness for our mental health, and how as leaders we can set the example for our people to build a happy and healthy workplace. Enjoy.

Mike O’Hara 0:43
Hi Simon, how are you.

Simon Blake 0:45
Yeah. Very good. Thank you How are you,

Mike O’Hara 0:47
yeah I'm good, thank you. So for our listeners here today we have Simon Blake OBE, who is the CEO mhfa England. He also deputy chair at Stonewall and a pride 365 champion amongst many other kind of roles and titles, which I'm sure you can tell me a little bit more about. I just wanted to say to you. First of all, how much of a privilege it is to have you on the happy employee podcast with me today. And for those that have listened previously and those that know me know my work and know the work that start within a regularly conducting help with different organisations and individuals that Mental Health First Aid was what started the whole journey, the impact that that training initial training had on my life and my passion for mental health advocacy and sharing and understanding more about what we will go through day to day is really what kickstart everything so now to be speaking firsthand to the CEO of that company is, is a real milestone for me actually and it's something I'm really really thankful and privileged that you're giving me time today so I wanted to say thank you right at the start,

Simon Blake 1:50
let me just say thank you to you for the work that you're doing yeah great to hear the impact it has because I think. Yeah. Mental Health First Aid for me is a really powerful tool but it's it's so brilliant to hear that it has a positive impact on you and those around you say thank you for the work that you do.

Mike O’Hara 2:09
Brilliant. Thank you. And for our listeners then for anyone who might not be familiar with you and your work. Could you just give us a very brief introduction to Simon Blake your role and kind of your background as well if that's okay.

Simon Blake 2:22
So, so I'm Chief Executive of Mental Health First Aid England, which is a social enterprise, training, and campaigning change organisation which is seeking to improve the mental health of the nation, and then very specifically to train, one in 10 of the adult population in mhfa England, skills and awareness, because we believe that that will create the cultural tipping point where the stigma that stops so many people getting help is really a broken down, and that people have got the knowledge and skills to talk about mental health and seek and and provide support where it's needed, and I've been privileged to be there, almost two years now as chief executive, and my whole career I guess has been in the charities and social sectors, around, young people mostly, and their health and well being specifically sexual health and HIV for much of that. But it feels to me like at the heart of all of this is what is it like to be human. What is our humanity and how do we help ourselves and each other navigate our way through this extraordinary world that we live in, that's even more extraordinary and 2020, you know, but beautiful but sometimes challenging.

Mike O’Hara 3:40
Absolutely. I'm just interested to ask is that something, a passion that you've had. From an early age, sort of helping people interested in humanity I asked that because from my own perspective, probably early on in my life and early sort of 20s I probably, I was quite self self obsessed might be going a bit too far but I don't think I did look out and open my eyes to what went on around me and the humanity of other people so I'd be really interested to know if that's something that you've kind of, it's grown with you or something you've always had.

Simon Blake 4:11
And it's a really, really good question. I think if I was to think about two major influences three major influences in my life actually one was at my primary school there was a special unit for children with Down syndrome, and very very early on, it was at the heart of schools sort of ethos was helping us as children to understand that we're all different and that we all have value and equal value, and that some people yeah that there's prejudice, and people are hurt and so that was a real defining sort of moment and I volunteered with about what was then NCH action for children, as part of a play scheme then as I became a secondary school pupil, and so that I think was that first ascent so things are not always equal off or necessarily fair in terms of the opportunities that people get, because then a brilliant woman down on our street I grew up in Cornwall, called Ingrid O'Brien and is probably the first feminist that I ever met without knowing what the world what the words meant, and also. Yeah, She would now describe herself as a social justice campaigner but she has she died in 1992, and she was a social justice campaigner and I used to go and do her shopping. Every week, and then I would sit and talk to her for a couple of hours, and she would talk about being a woman and growing up through the Second World War and and had children and about families and love and loss and all sorts of things I just had this beautiful sort of education from, from a from Egypt, from when I was so 11 three two when she died. 18. And then my brother got became a young father when he was 17. And, and the family dynamics, yeah around that. And again, that would have been in 1987 or 88, something like that. And so, so think those three sort of influences, I'm just gonna be really interested in people. And so I did a psychology degree and I was supposed to be an educational psychologist, but I never quite got there. So, so I didn't know whether whether I have always had that sense but certainly, as you asked the question, those were the three things that came into into my mind, and then obviously I grow up, I grew up as a gay man in the long shadow of HIV and section 28 in Cornwall in the 80s, and as you become pretty aware of social justice in that context, and and so perhaps that sort of experience would also be part of your my mind my, my ideal vision of the world is a mentally healthy and literate society which is fair and just for everyone.

Mike O’Hara 7:08
Yeah. Fantastic, thank you so much for sharing some personal stories out there as well. I'm just fascinated by it because it's something that as I get older and I learn more and I think as I mature really, it's something that I'm increasingly interested in is other people. And I think that is a unique fulfilment actually from learning about another person and being able to help another person, as a slight digression from already digressing from the questions that I said I was going to ask you, but I just find it really interesting I found that I never put enough value in the fulfilment for yourself, you can get from helping another person. I actually see the volunteering, that I do is quite almost a selfish act in a way because I get such a boost from it. Obviously there's the lovely byproduct of someone else gaining from me doing something for them for giving up my time, money, whatever it might be, but. And I think that is really undervalued way to boost your mental health and well being. If you feel comfortable and if you're in a place where you're kind of well enable enough to do so for somebody else I think that the more I grow and learn is that, actually, it's free it's something you can do quite easily but it gives you a, an unrivalled sense of well being. If that doesn't sound too too pink and fluffy but

Simon Blake 8:22
it doesn't does it. I mean we are all interdependent and, and we you know, and of course, it is part of maturing that we understand. Yeah, yeah, that is the art of growing up and and the the privilege of growing up I guess but yeah there was a, there's been some research done during coronavirus actually which showed that three quarters of people hope that we come out of the other side of this kinda kind of society, and two thirds of people recognise that when they are kind to other people. And when other people are kind to them. It boosts their mental well being. So, you know, it's all part of the same coin and none of us can navigate our way through life alone we will all need help and support at certain times. So, yeah, that that's where that's that's what we got to get to as near a place where we're able to give and seek help and support.

Mike O’Hara 9:22
Absolutely. I think mhfa does really well it's also that community aspect as well, in terms of those who are trained, both at the practitioner and I can speak now from a point of view of thing and mhfa structure, the way that we're supported and the kind of the little community that I formed with the dozen people that I trained with as an instructor coming together around a common goal wherever that might may be and it's such a fulfilling experience when it's like minded people from completely different backgrounds to me I loved it because I've. For those that know me, that are listening I come from a predominately military background so I live in my own little microcosm a lot of the time so actually to bring in such diversity in terms of who wants to help others with their mental health we formed that little community and I think actually mhfa does that really well. And from that, we can then pass that on to those that have been training and those that were training to help other staff to importance of community again, I think there's things that we emphasise which is importance of practical things like sleep and eating well and seeking professional help and medication is appropriate all those good things but actually community and working around a common goal and a sense of purpose is something again that I've probably underrated in my early in my life but now I realised how important it is for me so that's something that's that's become really apparent to the work done with mhfa as well. Yeah, so, to go on to. Now, a more kind of specific question so today's session what I really wanted to get to the half with yourself as such a prominent leader in this space and for someone who holds positions of considerable influence across the different organisations that I mentioned at the start, how do you personally First of all, how do you ensure a positive work life balance yourself and if we take the mhfa analogy, how do you empty your stress container.

Simon Blake 11:12
I mean, I think the first thing that I would say is, I think, I tend to think about life as. How do you get a balanced life, the work fits within. And, and that may sound pedantic or neuron so nonsensical so just try and explain it. But, so, yeah, my sense of purpose I guess is the work, the Volume Two is all about sort of social justice all about. So, improving society so sometimes when I'm working. It doesn't feel like work, it feels like you're doing the things that I want to do. And other times you will be really clear that actually even though it's a Thursday morning, that I'm exhausted and need to think about doing something else so that's our overall sense of trying to bring your life into a more balanced place and sometimes. Yeah, that doesn't mean nine to five is a work life balance it's how does balance feel all together. And I guess when I was, what I, when I when I was younger, I used to work really hard and I used to play really hard in sort of party, playing and clubbing and things and luckily, I still like to play hard but playing hard is slightly different. Now to sitting and talking to people, I run I share a boss, and. Ordinarily, have a dog, but my dog is still in lockdown with my parents in Cornwall so those would be the sort of main ways really so exercise, and my partner I do running together often lots of walking, and, and, and trying and this is the bit which I'm probably worse than trying to leave my phone at home. Often, and, except that you won't have a camera you won't have a card. So, all in one place, but they're actually trying to disconnect. We talked a lot about connecting during the beginning of lockdown I think it's really taught me that disconnecting is as important as connecting digitally. At least so. So yeah, so, so, trying to keep an overall balance by having some hobbies and activities but also recognising that balance doesn't always mean having things in equal measure it means knowing what's keeping your passion, going at that particular moment in time.

Mike O’Hara 13:36
Perfect, thank you that's really useful for people to hear I think and I really like the idea of leaving the phone at home because it does feel like it's actually joined to us these days, doesn't it is. It stuck in the palm often we take it absolutely everywhere and certainly something I'm trying to do a little bit more of myself as well. And so as as leaders then within an organisation as a leader yourself, how, what can we do to recognise the potential for, for burnout and what can we put in place I talked about burnout because I know you've I've, I've read what you've written really eloquently on burnout recently, and it's something that I feel like is, I don't know if it's a growing phenomenon or whether it's just, we're growing in our awareness of it as a specific term, but it's obviously got a prevalence in certain organisations certain fields and workplaces. How do you think we work to recognise that and what do you think's The best way to try and avoid it becoming an even more prevalent issue.

Simon Blake 14:28
Yeah, I mean it's interesting isn't it the World Health Organisation now has it classified. Yeah, as a, as a problem, yeah workplace burnout. And so I think, yeah, I mean we obviously mhfa England, try to, to be really yeah as good as it's possible to be on this stuff but there's all we're learning. Yeah, hold it all at the time. I guess the number one thing is that we should be trying to remove the things which cause it rather than try to prevent it. What that means is that I think if you try to prevent it, we often put the onus on the individual to not work too hard to recognise the signs and symptoms whereas I think your question about leaders, our job should be, How do we try to remove their, their systems issues the cultural issues. The working issues which could cause that burnout and. And I guess there's a there's a really fine balancing there isn't there which is is about a leadership issue it's about a systems issue and then it's about individual responsibility as well and I, and I guess the thing which been really interested in some of the conversations in the last six months I think has taught us a lot about this is that often people don't necessarily think about why we have paid holiday, why the trade unions work so hard to get us to have a working power, your working week limits. And so when people didn't want to take holidays and not don't say shouldn't go away so actually the reason that we pay for you to holiday is to look after yourself. The reason that you have flexible working is to use it in order to make up for the time. It isn't something which you only use when you can do nice holiday so based on conversations. Actually, some of these things which are really there to drive well being and strike better practices within the workplace. And perhaps not understood by individuals by managers and leaders because we've grown up, always having paid holiday. Yeah, whereas not left generation before, not everybody did so they recognise the value of that is slightly different ways so I think understanding our history of well being and what it needs to look like. So from a leadership perspective, it really is. How do you remove it and how do you make sure your staff, how do you remove the sort of the root causes of burnout, where you possibly can. And how do you work with staff for to help managers to help them to understand. Signs symptoms and and for everybody's collective responsibility.

Mike O’Hara 17:18
Absolutely. Thank you, it's really interesting to me actually the, the way you reframed and work paid holiday and it's an obvious thing but it's something that we don't consider in practice we make a different connotation in our mind about what we should be doing that with that. And I've seen it I've seen it in my own workplaces before when you're encouraged to take that holiday to take a break and particularly at the moment. I am seeing it that there's that reticence to do it and save it for a rainy day when we might be able to go overseas, but ultimately, we're not in that position I think it's something we have to accept we have to manage expectations and also realise the value of just spending time, relaxing and spending time with those people that are important to us and I actually think that one of the positives that's come out of the lockdown is really getting back to basics in terms of what is really important the amount of people I've spoken to, who've told me some really uplifting stories about maybe they've had their second child not long before locked down and they've actually had a chance to see, as opposed to the way they would have a death first time actually thinking of a specific example now actually seen the chance, had the chance to see that child grow and develop and spend more time and realise this is what I should spend more of my time doing this is everything I do should be to try and aim towards to get that quality time and to do the best for the people that are the most important to me so I do actually think that there's a positive to be taken from this situation, but perhaps it's reframing the way that we see work and life and holiday and. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. And we thought about before.

Simon Blake 18:51
And I think my guess is it's really important is it to acknowledge that for some people, you know, home isn't safe for some people working from home has been really difficult and that they've been all sorts of horrible, horrible situations and you know bereavement etc where people haven't been able to funerals in the way that they would have liked etc. And I don't want to underplay any of that but if you all then also recognise that the, that we can take courage I think and and hope is how adaptable, people have been, and whatever happens next. And that, obviously, is going to be a mental health impact of, of our environment we already know that there, there isn't has been, and we have to I think really just use that sense of being community spirited of recognising assets within us in order to draw strength for whatever lies ahead and, you know, the world is different now. It means for the foreseeable future, at least

Mike O’Hara 19:51
something that I say is reassuring on what you just said there about it is going to be different, and we will see an impact something that I think is actually really sure it might just be for me but I've kind of talked about this with other people and they've echoed it is that it's a unique situation where none of us have done this before there's usually somebody who's got some lived experience of something that you're feeling or something you've experienced or somebody you know who's been been through something similar actually think there's something quite reassuring about the fact that while we still we've all had different experiences of lockdown of coronavirus of what it's meant for our individual lives, our livelihood our family wherever it might be none of us had done this before and if we can kind of keep that in the back of our minds This, again, this may just be the way that I look at it, and it gives me that sense of reassurance that okay maybe I can make mistakes and maybe I won't know exactly the right thing to do but the only way we can get through it in any way we can bounce back from it has to be a little bit more compassionate be a little bit more patient. Listen to what people's experiences have been because without doing that, we can't make those reasonable adjustments to try and get back to something that we can call normal in inverted commas. So, there is something quietly reassuring in that I think and sometimes it's quite hard to see that amongst everything that's going on but,

Simon Blake 21:02
yeah, maybe that's the compassion and patience has to also be with ourselves to you, we're often much more compassionate and patient with other people. Well, I certainly know that I am, but, you know, learning to sit with our own discomfort and our own spikes of joy and moments I think he's, he's also something which pass. Yet, we get some of that contemplation and reflection is part of part of part of that part being kinder to ourselves as well.

Mike O’Hara 21:32
That's a really good point. Thank you. Well, I wanted to move on to to next is that we're drawing on the mhfa training that I've done and now I'm lucky enough to deliver to others we learn that marginalised groups such as the LGBTQ plus and the bane communities, actually show high risk of experiencing mental health the statistics are there to back that up and we communicate that in the training that we deliver. And as a leader and as someone who's done so much good work I look through your CV before we did the podcast as well as well as my awareness of you as well and you have so much influence in so many different kinds of walks of life and seemed incredible to read about. So I think there's you're as good a person as I could find to ask about how as leaders to lead by example and addressing what is quite clearly an issue that needs addressing.

Simon Blake 22:22
Yeah. And I guess the most important thing I think is that all of us have to recognise that it is not LGBT plus people than themselves or black people or people of colour, who are inherently. Our experience for a mental health, it is about social inequalities, it's about that mental health is both a cause and consequence of any chronic poor mental health but cause and consequence of of inequalities and really amplifies those and so, yeah, as leaders as as people, it is recognising that your privilege and privileges exists that inequality and inequalities exist and doing all that we can to try to address those. And that is, you know in in understanding and learning more about race and about racism about systemic racism which, obviously, you're really really powerful earthy felt. At the moment, following the killing of George Floyd. It's about recognising that you toward the way we talk and the language that we use, and can either include people or exclude them in terms of sexuality, gender, and all sorts of issues so our job I guess is to to think about all the things that we can do to educate ourselves about inequalities to understand the impact of prejudice and oppression and systemic inequalities, to then think about everything that we can do to, to be as inclusive in our language in our actions to amplify the voices of people from marginalised communities and to know that everybody has a story, and try to ensure that both stories are heard. Yeah, in all sorts of in all sorts of ways but yeah at the heart of all of this is just because something isn't a problem for you. It doesn't mean it's not a problem. And so, yeah, I remember a conversation three or four years ago where we're talking about racism and some stuff well it's not as bad as it was in the 70s. As I okay and your white man, probably not the best judge of that and they're absolutely indignant with range that I could be saying that we, as white men we're not the best people to make a judgement about how people experience, racism, similarly around sexuality, but because equal marriage has been on the books for several years in England, that doesn't mean that the lived experience of a 1314, or 15, year old. And, you know, is not one where they experience prejudice and oppression and you know the impact of being hyper vigilant, whether that's about your personal safety because your worries around racism or worries about homophobia or transphobia does mean that young people. Clearly you talked about the stress container earlier, if one of the things in your stress container is am I going to be safe when I walk down the street. Yeah, but that then on top of all of the other social economic inequalities. Then, clearly, we've got to change the system, not individual people, the Syrian people often say the system's broken system was designed to reinforce the status quo it's our job now to think how do we dismantle all those AI systems that reinforce oppression and not think it starts with someone else. It's what we do in our daily lives that make a difference.

Mike O’Hara 26:18
Absolutely. And I think that what I've seen from certainly Mental Health First Aid training there's there's practical tips in there to spot signs and symptoms of specific disorders and challenges that people might have but what I really like about it is that that piece around encouraging it to be a learning journey to increasingly learn about other people and other people's struggles and the importance of empathy and empathy is probably the word, probably that has resonated with me throughout my entire journey with mental health advocacy it's something that I don't think I have always understood or employed and I think empathy is something that can be so powerful certainly and I see it I see it in the sessions that I run in the office environment I work in I see it everywhere that there's, there's been improvements, but there's still a lot of things holding us back and what I really liked is that he went straight in with the wider view of the system and society in the wider perspective because unfortunately it's not just mental health where we go straight to the individual and what they look like or their sexual preference or their gender. We try to focus on the individual and find it an issue and a problem there I think that if I can make another link back to mhfa. I'd be remiss of me not to have you here on the podcast. We talked about frame of reference, and I think understanding that you have a frame of reference, and that it doesn't cover 360 degrees that there will be gaps in that and there will be things that perhaps we aren't so educated on. Even if we've still got a lot of learning to do we're uncomfortable around that articulate it. Be honest be open and see. And this is what I'm trying to do with the podcast and a lot of ways is to seek opportunities to learn about other people because whilst we might not always get it perfectly right. I think that's what we can do to really build a more compassionate and inviting society, I really like that you went straight to that, as opposed to addressing what often is the conversation that I find myself in which is looking at those statistics in isolation, monitor group. Yeah, if that makes sense.

Simon Blake 28:18
It doesn't make sense, I think you're absolutely right about empathy I guess the two other words that Joe would just add to that would be about solidarity and ally ship and thinking about those as doing words as actions. You know what, you know, we can all Express solidarity, but how would a trans person or a person of colour know that you were standing in solidarity with them in pursuit of, you know, social justice MC, or more equal words and and yeah those those little things that we can do each day if we all did them, you know, we would we would make enormous progress in dismantling those, those systems of oppression, which have been held for a very clear purpose.

Mike O’Hara 29:04
And I might be putting you completely on the spot in asking this question but for sort of leaders or managers within organisations that we have listening, and you talked about solidarity and ally ship and perhaps speaking up and having the confidence to speak up around certain things are there actual kind of practical examples that you can think of that can be implemented or can be used.

Simon Blake 29:24
I mean, I think I think that the. So my mhfa England, as you will know we published, we launched a campaign at the beginning of lockdown called my whole self. And that was very much about recognising that yeah if we don't have mentally healthy workplaces, people have to be able to take their whole self to work. And when we talk about people taking their whole self to work yeah that's, yeah, about ensuring that it isn't always the same people who get the opportunities to do things but ensuring that people who do the work, get the credit is about ensuring that people would feel comfortable in traditional dress so with religious symbols or wearing particular items of clothing in the workplace, and it's about everything that we do to, to give permission to validate to encourage and support that inclusive entity we talk a lot about in organisations around some religious festivals Christmas and Easter, in particular, how do we give voice to people celebrating feed or another, religious festival, how do we make sure that everybody is getting those platforms when we're in meetings. Yeah, that we use inclusive pronouns, or we had programmes, etc. So I think he's just thinking about all of those, those different things and making sure that we are doing everything that we can to encourage people to bring their whole selves to work, and then to to actively seek to encourage and don't give credit to people who deserve the credit for the work that they've done ensure that learning opportunities development opportunities training opportunities motion opportunities are equally available and equitable sense to to diverse groups of people because we know that if we carry on doing the same things as we currently do, then we will carry on getting the same results as we currently get. And those same results will basically mean that the white men, and then white people will get more opportunities than people of colour. But people from different sexualities and gender identities at night feel less comfortable stepping forward into the workplace, so they're not necessarily big grand gestures that thinking all the time in our recruitment selection and induction in our day to day processes in our talent development, we're thinking about how do we make sure that we're really, really, ensuring that we're being inclusive and thoughtful and deliberate simply thought. Definitely.

Mike O’Hara 32:27
Thank you. There's probably two things that resonated really with me actually what you said there and the first was the idea of how powerful gratitude can be and it could just be a pat on the back and a well done, it could be a promotion, it could be something as big as that but I think that it's such an easy gesture and probably goes back to that maturity and that looking outside your own sphere and your own again to use the term frame of reference and perhaps I've seen how people will work themselves into the ground, because they have pride and they have drive and ambition and they want to do the best absolute job possible it gives them purpose it gives them control. And if you don't occasionally get a well done or credit for the work you do I think it can be a real, and then it can be really debilitating for our mental health because we don't have that sense of achievement or purpose, or even control and also factors across into change I think in terms of having that dialogue with your management, particularly thinking the kind of hierarchical business sense would be that unless can change is communicated effectively and openly and unless gratitude is outwardly shown and you're transparent and the gratitude you have for the work that people do within your organisation. It's such a it seems such an easy thing to me to be able to really boost the well being of a team, but we don't always do it. I don't think we're so task focused and results focused and there's always. The next thing to get onto and as always the next profit to be made, I think that is such an easy thing. But don't necessarily do it. And the other thing would be around diversity and it's obviously very topical at the moment rightly so, and it's something that I'm always increasingly trying to learn about I think a lot of us are in that position and we always should be, but something that Richard Etienne brought out on the podcast that he did for us was actually not just diversity in terms of race or gender or sexuality but diversity cognitive diversity and diversity of personality he talks about being an introvert and straight away we have connotations that we draw around someone who might be introverted but actually, he just sees that as he sees that as a strength he sees himself as a, as a with, he sees it as his quiet power I think is a phrase he uses so I think that there's a nuance within there in terms of embracing those who might go about things slightly differently in their approach, but there's still merit in the work that they do. And then what they bring to work and I imagine that's entirely encompassed within the wholesale campaign that you talked about.

Simon Blake 34:55
Absolutely. And then my, my boss, brilliant boss that I had in the late 90s and through to about 2006, just said to me, you know, never recruit people that are just like you. Make sure that you are recruiting people who are different than you've got different strengths new. Because if you just recruit loads of you it will be an absolute nightmare. One of you is great. Finally wouldn't think, build a team with witches and always be building a team where the people in your team are better than you about certain things and wanting your job because A, it will make you better but also it means that you'll really be playing to the strengths of different people which is good for well being, we often focus on people's development areas when actually, you know, thinking about team, how do we how do we play to people's strengths and maximise those strengths because otherwise, you're asking everybody to get good enough at some things rather than something find things really really easy and other people find them really difficult so give person finds it really easy, more of that to do so that person who struggles with it can get away with doing things which reward and help them.

Mike O’Hara 36:03
And we think about perhaps the productivity benefits of that I'd always try with my mental health and well being happened to bring it back to the well being benefits as well as just feeling happy, and your work, and there's a really good book I recently read on it as well so I'm a bit of a cognitive diversity warrior rebel ideas by Matthew cya I've just read that and that's, it's an eye opening read on on the idea of the power of diversity, not only in terms of background ethnicity, but also personality and thought process as well so if our leaders there listening in take one lesson from, how to perhaps amend the way they recruit and look at the way they employ their teams and that's actually a really good lesson to take away from that. And thank you thank you so much so and I'm conscious of time but I do have another kind of broad question for you and we probably would have touched on it already, but if you could just give one kind of golden nugget. If it's possible to the in the workplace, would you say there's one most important thing that you could give to our listeners in terms of maintaining positive mental health for our people so if you're a manager right now, who has a team that functioning okay but you've noticed that a few are perhaps struggling with the transition back into the workplace and locked down a few are struggling with motivation, you may actually have those who are living with diagnosed mental health problems, and it could be a whole spread. What would you say to them to try and one thing that they could do right now tangibly perhaps to boost their well being, within their workplace. And away I think you fully on the spot here and there's probably more than one thing.

Simon Blake 37:34
I guess it's a really interesting question it's such an important question, I, and I think that the one thing that always reminds me of what good managers ship against as a colleague, you just said, and you can't manage your team. Well, if you don't know them well. And I think that lockdown has demonstrated, more than any other time yeah when you're managing remotely. And, and others will have been doing that that actually knowing and understanding your team and having a good enough relationship with people that they either feel able to talk to you or they know who to talk to so I think, yeah, understanding what is going on for people at the moment because actually when you have that locked down period it was almost easier because there was one set of rules, and then most of us were supposed to follow them. And then, now it's much. It's much more. It's much harder for people to to find their way through because there are so make different sort of rules have different expectations and that's happening regionally and locally. And when it comes to thinking about returning to the workplace. If that's what people are doing is finding out what it is people are excited about finding out what people are worried about trying to find new ways of working with people to that that suits them. And I guess as a team. If want to get to one thing and go for one thing, you know, we have had to trust people enormously through this period, and build that trust build on that trust keep that trust and find ways that work for people moving forwards yeah there isn't a rush, we can't go backwards, there is no rush back to the way they are there is only a way forward and much forward. And if we can do that using the trust which we've established, or had to rely on in this last period and build that with well with a sense of, if we trust people engage with people understand people will be able to support their well being through the next phase as well.

Mike O’Hara 39:50
Perfect. And I think that brings us actually really nicely full circle back to where we started in terms of your drive, and from the kind of childhood experience that you described to to invest in to learn more about people and to understand people and I think that the lesson you've given there, if we can take one thing for our teams is invest and understand and take time to learn about our people. And I think that's very neatly and perhaps unintended but it's worked really well to, to bring podcast to a close, well I would ask before you go and I'm again I'm really grateful for the time you've given today is a chance for you to sort of share any other messages.

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